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	<title>Comments on: Google Offers &#8220;More And Better Search Refinements&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/</link>
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		<title>By: Max L. Wilson - Max's Blog</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-4681</link>
		<dc:creator>Max L. Wilson - Max's Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-4681</guid>
		<description>[...] was recently interested by a debate about why Google sticks its facets, and now its query refinements etc, at the bottom of the s.... The basic assumption that was proposed was that you only need to refine your results if you didnt [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was recently interested by a debate about why Google sticks its facets, and now its query refinements etc, at the bottom of the s&#8230;. The basic assumption that was proposed was that you only need to refine your results if you didnt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Is Google Diving Head First Into HCIR? &#124; The Noisy Channel</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-3107</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Google Diving Head First Into HCIR? &#124; The Noisy Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 02:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-3107</guid>
		<description>[...] features they&#8217;d already rolled out, and that I personally didn&#8217;t find overwhelming (see here and here). Still, I&#8217;m pleased that their marketing language is embracing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] features they&#8217;d already rolled out, and that I personally didn&#8217;t find overwhelming (see here and here). Still, I&#8217;m pleased that their marketing language is embracing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Much ado about nothing &#171; The Mendicant Bug</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2573</link>
		<dc:creator>Much ado about nothing &#171; The Mendicant Bug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2573</guid>
		<description>[...] post on it is worth [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post on it is worth [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Taking the Google Wonder Wheel for a Spin &#124; The Noisy Channel</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2557</link>
		<dc:creator>Taking the Google Wonder Wheel for a Spin &#124; The Noisy Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2557</guid>
		<description>[...] I blogged yesterday, I&#8217;m glad that Google is giving exploratory / HCIR approaches a shot. But I&#8217;m shocked [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I blogged yesterday, I&#8217;m glad that Google is giving exploratory / HCIR approaches a shot. But I&#8217;m shocked [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Tunkelang</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2555</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Tunkelang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2555</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not an expert on eye-tracking, but common sense leads me to agree with Jeremy on this one. At most I imagine that we are predisposed towards the design elements we expect based on familiarity , but surely we react at least in part to the actual design put in front of us. Indeed, those expectations have changed over the past several years.

Otis, you might be right that their previous related searches were strictly based on text-wise query similarity. Too late to check now! But I think that&#039;s still largely true of the current ones.

For example, compare:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?q=sigir&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.google.com/search?q=sigir&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kosmix.com/topic/sigir&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.kosmix.com/topic/sigir&lt;/a&gt;

And, in case anyone is wondering, I have no vested interest in Kosmix, and more than in Duck Duck Go or any other web search engine. But I do make a point of plugging the folks who are pushing the envelope of exploratory search on the web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an expert on eye-tracking, but common sense leads me to agree with Jeremy on this one. At most I imagine that we are predisposed towards the design elements we expect based on familiarity , but surely we react at least in part to the actual design put in front of us. Indeed, those expectations have changed over the past several years.</p>
<p>Otis, you might be right that their previous related searches were strictly based on text-wise query similarity. Too late to check now! But I think that&#8217;s still largely true of the current ones.</p>
<p>For example, compare:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=sigir" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?q=sigir</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.kosmix.com/topic/sigir" rel="nofollow">http://www.kosmix.com/topic/sigir</a></p>
<p>And, in case anyone is wondering, I have no vested interest in Kosmix, and more than in Duck Duck Go or any other web search engine. But I do make a point of plugging the folks who are pushing the envelope of exploratory search on the web.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2554</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2554</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This was Yahoo, if I remember rightly, and there was talk of a golden triangle, esentially spanning from top-left to top-right to bottom-left. The strange assumption they had was that they should try to fit everything into that golden triangle. &lt;/i&gt;

Oh my goodness -- don&#039;t even get me started.  I agree, that is a strange, strange assumption.  It&#039;s almost completely backwards.  The statistical distribution of eye movement across the page is not independent of the design itself.  Change the design, and you&#039;ll change the golden triangle into an oval, square, vertical striped lines, whatever. It&#039;s almost as if they assume that the golden triangle is an objective, decontextualized fundamental law of the cosmos, and design everything to fit into that. That doesn&#039;t make any sense to me.

(FWIW, it might have been Yahoo, but Google also does this golden triangle stuff:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/eye-tracking-studies-more-than-meets.html)

About your CHI workshop paper: That sounds quite interesting!  Any way you could send me a copy?  Or do you have to wait until it&#039;s officially published? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This was Yahoo, if I remember rightly, and there was talk of a golden triangle, esentially spanning from top-left to top-right to bottom-left. The strange assumption they had was that they should try to fit everything into that golden triangle. </i></p>
<p>Oh my goodness &#8212; don&#8217;t even get me started.  I agree, that is a strange, strange assumption.  It&#8217;s almost completely backwards.  The statistical distribution of eye movement across the page is not independent of the design itself.  Change the design, and you&#8217;ll change the golden triangle into an oval, square, vertical striped lines, whatever. It&#8217;s almost as if they assume that the golden triangle is an objective, decontextualized fundamental law of the cosmos, and design everything to fit into that. That doesn&#8217;t make any sense to me.</p>
<p>(FWIW, it might have been Yahoo, but Google also does this golden triangle stuff:</p>
<p><a href="http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/eye-tracking-studies-more-than-meets.html)" rel="nofollow">http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/eye-tracking-studies-more-than-meets.html)</a></p>
<p>About your CHI workshop paper: That sounds quite interesting!  Any way you could send me a copy?  Or do you have to wait until it&#8217;s officially published? <img src='http://thenoisychannel.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Max L. Wilson</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2553</link>
		<dc:creator>Max L. Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2553</guid>
		<description>Daniel - Interesting post. I have also heard what Jeremy had heard, in fact, its possible Jeremy and I discussed it at JCDL. Anyway, it is disappointing that the HCIR elements are at the bottom. I saw a talk at a workshop at SIGIR07 (I guess it was), on eye-tracking studies over search engines. This was Yahoo, if I remember rightly, and there was talk of a golden triangle, esentially spanning from top-left to top-right to bottom-left. The strange assumption they had was that they should try to fit everything into that golden triangle. The question I asked, which came back with little response, was what can they do to make it a golden square. It seems like, as with many search UIs, making use of the right hand side might be a way to do that. If it was under a few sponsored links too (towards the bottom-right of the avg screen), then it would potentially make it even more square.

Jeremy - we are about to promote this same position about getting context from facets without specifically interacting with them, at the sensemaking workshop at CHI. It follows on from our Backward Highlighting paper at UIST, which did try to measure it to some extent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel &#8211; Interesting post. I have also heard what Jeremy had heard, in fact, its possible Jeremy and I discussed it at JCDL. Anyway, it is disappointing that the HCIR elements are at the bottom. I saw a talk at a workshop at SIGIR07 (I guess it was), on eye-tracking studies over search engines. This was Yahoo, if I remember rightly, and there was talk of a golden triangle, esentially spanning from top-left to top-right to bottom-left. The strange assumption they had was that they should try to fit everything into that golden triangle. The question I asked, which came back with little response, was what can they do to make it a golden square. It seems like, as with many search UIs, making use of the right hand side might be a way to do that. If it was under a few sponsored links too (towards the bottom-right of the avg screen), then it would potentially make it even more square.</p>
<p>Jeremy &#8211; we are about to promote this same position about getting context from facets without specifically interacting with them, at the sensemaking workshop at CHI. It follows on from our Backward Highlighting paper at UIST, which did try to measure it to some extent.</p>
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		<title>By: Otis Gospodnetic</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2548</link>
		<dc:creator>Otis Gospodnetic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 04:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2548</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t look into this yet, but note how their examples (the ones you quoted) don&#039;t include any simple substring matching.  The related searches I used to see on Google&#039;s SERPs *tended* to be *mostly* text-wise similar queries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t look into this yet, but note how their examples (the ones you quoted) don&#8217;t include any simple substring matching.  The related searches I used to see on Google&#8217;s SERPs *tended* to be *mostly* text-wise similar queries.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2547</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2547</guid>
		<description>Notice how in the Official Google Blog writeup (the link that you give), they don&#039;t actually show a query in which any advertisements are shown.  

One could read a whole lot into that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notice how in the Official Google Blog writeup (the link that you give), they don&#8217;t actually show a query in which any advertisements are shown.  </p>
<p>One could read a whole lot into that.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/03/24/google-offers-more-and-better-search-refinements/comment-page-1/#comment-2546</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1724#comment-2546</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Second, if they believe that this feature can improve user experience, why are they putting the results at the bottom of the page (at least on all of my queries)? Surely they know from their own logs that only a minority of users look to the end of the results list.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ve heard them comment about this.  They say that the reason why they put things like this at the bottom, only, is that they don&#039;t want it to interfere with your normal successful searching.  

Their opinion, if I understand it correctly, is that if a query is a successful query, and you find exactly what you want in the 1st or 2nd rank, then Google&#039;s opinion is that having the facets at the top or at the side only gets in the way of you getting to that top result as quickly as possible. 

It is only when the query is an unsuccessful query that you start scrolling down further in the ranked list, so that you eventually wind up at the bottom of the list.  At that point, you see the query suggestions, and only at that point do they become relevant to you, i.e. when your query has failed.

This is Google&#039;s story, and they appear to be sticking to it.

Now, on the surface it sounds reasonable.  But I don&#039;t believe it, for two reasons:

(1) Long ago they started putting ads above the top-ranked result, instead of just over to the side at the right.  So they already throw up junk in front of the top ranked search result, and make it harder for the user to find/click that top result. 

(2) As a searcher, I don&#039;t always use exploratory facets or query suggestions in an explicit way.  Often I use them to conceptually orient myself in the searches that I do.  I read over the facets to get an understanding of what the space is about, without actually clicking on them.  They aren&#039;t always directly useful, but they are extremely valuable in helping me establish a context around the rest of the information that I am seeing.  

Of course, Google doesn&#039;t realize this, because they can&#039;t measure it.  If nobody clicks one of the query suggestions or facets, they have no way of knowing whether those facets were useful.. even if they were extremely useful to me.

And so having facets at the top, even if I never click them, doesn&#039;t interfere with my normal, successful searching, anyway, as Google fears.  Even if I never click anything, seeing that information is valuable to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Second, if they believe that this feature can improve user experience, why are they putting the results at the bottom of the page (at least on all of my queries)? Surely they know from their own logs that only a minority of users look to the end of the results list.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard them comment about this.  They say that the reason why they put things like this at the bottom, only, is that they don&#8217;t want it to interfere with your normal successful searching.  </p>
<p>Their opinion, if I understand it correctly, is that if a query is a successful query, and you find exactly what you want in the 1st or 2nd rank, then Google&#8217;s opinion is that having the facets at the top or at the side only gets in the way of you getting to that top result as quickly as possible. </p>
<p>It is only when the query is an unsuccessful query that you start scrolling down further in the ranked list, so that you eventually wind up at the bottom of the list.  At that point, you see the query suggestions, and only at that point do they become relevant to you, i.e. when your query has failed.</p>
<p>This is Google&#8217;s story, and they appear to be sticking to it.</p>
<p>Now, on the surface it sounds reasonable.  But I don&#8217;t believe it, for two reasons:</p>
<p>(1) Long ago they started putting ads above the top-ranked result, instead of just over to the side at the right.  So they already throw up junk in front of the top ranked search result, and make it harder for the user to find/click that top result. </p>
<p>(2) As a searcher, I don&#8217;t always use exploratory facets or query suggestions in an explicit way.  Often I use them to conceptually orient myself in the searches that I do.  I read over the facets to get an understanding of what the space is about, without actually clicking on them.  They aren&#8217;t always directly useful, but they are extremely valuable in helping me establish a context around the rest of the information that I am seeing.  </p>
<p>Of course, Google doesn&#8217;t realize this, because they can&#8217;t measure it.  If nobody clicks one of the query suggestions or facets, they have no way of knowing whether those facets were useful.. even if they were extremely useful to me.</p>
<p>And so having facets at the top, even if I never click them, doesn&#8217;t interfere with my normal, successful searching, anyway, as Google fears.  Even if I never click anything, seeing that information is valuable to me.</p>
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