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	<title>Comments on: What Would Google Do? / What Does Google Do?</title>
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	<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/</link>
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		<title>By: Search User Interfaces and Data Quality &#124; The Noisy Channel</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-4942</link>
		<dc:creator>Search User Interfaces and Data Quality &#124; The Noisy Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 04:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-4942</guid>
		<description>[...] working on the inside has also help me appreciate what Bob Wyman tried to tell me months ago&#8211;that Google has no philosophical predilection towards black box approaches, but [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] working on the inside has also help me appreciate what Bob Wyman tried to tell me months ago&#8211;that Google has no philosophical predilection towards black box approaches, but [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I&#8217;m No Google Fan Boy, But&#8230; &#124; The Noisy Channel</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-2783</link>
		<dc:creator>I&#8217;m No Google Fan Boy, But&#8230; &#124; The Noisy Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-2783</guid>
		<description>[...] may not be a Google fan boy (start with this post if you&#8217;re new here), but the recent column in the Guardian (which, by the way, is one of my [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] may not be a Google fan boy (start with this post if you&#8217;re new here), but the recent column in the Guardian (which, by the way, is one of my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Jarvis Comes Clean &#124; The Noisy Channel</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-2739</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Jarvis Comes Clean &#124; The Noisy Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-2739</guid>
		<description>[...] “What Would Google Do?&#8221; I came back and assembled my reactions in a post entitled &#8220;What Would Google Do? / What Does Google Do?&#8220;. One of my strongest objections to Jarvis&#8217;s shtick is that he extols transparency as a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] “What Would Google Do?&#8221; I came back and assembled my reactions in a post entitled &#8220;What Would Google Do? / What Does Google Do?&#8220;. One of my strongest objections to Jarvis&#8217;s shtick is that he extols transparency as a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: FXPAL Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Google marketing vs. Google journalism</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-2072</link>
		<dc:creator>FXPAL Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Google marketing vs. Google journalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-2072</guid>
		<description>[...] is a lot of discussion on the web about Google and its proclamations, policies, and practices. One recent episode involves [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a lot of discussion on the web about Google and its proclamations, policies, and practices. One recent episode involves [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1836</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 05:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1836</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t think you can blame Google for pageranking you into the topmost popular hits; that’s where the ad revenue is.&lt;/i&gt;

Edward, I&#039;m not trying to be dense, but.. I don&#039;t quite get what you&#039;re saying..  you&#039;re saying that I can&#039;t blame Google for how they construct the organic results to their search engine.. because that&#039;s where all the ad revenue is?  Do you mean that Google purposely constructs a certain type of both result content and result interface, in order to drive more traffic to their paid listings?

I just want to make clear.. is this what you are saying?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t think you can blame Google for pageranking you into the topmost popular hits; that’s where the ad revenue is.</i></p>
<p>Edward, I&#8217;m not trying to be dense, but.. I don&#8217;t quite get what you&#8217;re saying..  you&#8217;re saying that I can&#8217;t blame Google for how they construct the organic results to their search engine.. because that&#8217;s where all the ad revenue is?  Do you mean that Google purposely constructs a certain type of both result content and result interface, in order to drive more traffic to their paid listings?</p>
<p>I just want to make clear.. is this what you are saying?</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Vielmetti</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1835</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Vielmetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1835</guid>
		<description>Jeremy - I don&#039;t think you can blame Google for pageranking you into the topmost popular hits; that&#039;s where the ad revenue is.

I almost always find the most interestingness in Google queries when I don&#039;t put in the obvious search - when I restrict a search to site:.gov , or when I toss in some extra words to narrow down the search space, or when I re-run queries that took people to my own blog and see what they saw that made them click on my site.

None of those techniques are ever going to generate Google any ad revenue worth measuring, and there are so many possible variants that it&#039;s hard to do SEO to screw up the results for commercial gain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy &#8211; I don&#8217;t think you can blame Google for pageranking you into the topmost popular hits; that&#8217;s where the ad revenue is.</p>
<p>I almost always find the most interestingness in Google queries when I don&#8217;t put in the obvious search &#8211; when I restrict a search to site:.gov , or when I toss in some extra words to narrow down the search space, or when I re-run queries that took people to my own blog and see what they saw that made them click on my site.</p>
<p>None of those techniques are ever going to generate Google any ad revenue worth measuring, and there are so many possible variants that it&#8217;s hard to do SEO to screw up the results for commercial gain.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1815</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 05:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1815</guid>
		<description>I pinged him, invited him to join.  We&#039;ll see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pinged him, invited him to join.  We&#8217;ll see.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Tunkelang</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1811</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Tunkelang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1811</guid>
		<description>Yup, that one. I wish he&#039;d attended my talk at Google, since he would have made the Q&amp;A much more intense!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, that one. I wish he&#8217;d attended my talk at Google, since he would have made the Q&#038;A much more intense!</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1805</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1805</guid>
		<description>This guy? http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobwyman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This guy? <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobwyman" rel="nofollow">http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobwyman</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Tunkelang</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1804</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Tunkelang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1804</guid>
		<description>The &quot;he&quot; is Bob Wyman, not Jeff Jarvis, and he does have inside information. I&#039;d love to hear him elaborate and continue our discussion in this venue--or anywhere else. I have no idea if he knows (or cares) that I&#039;m blogging about our conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;he&#8221; is Bob Wyman, not Jeff Jarvis, and he does have inside information. I&#8217;d love to hear him elaborate and continue our discussion in this venue&#8211;or anywhere else. I have no idea if he knows (or cares) that I&#8217;m blogging about our conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1803</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1803</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He insisted that I wasn’t giving enough credit to Google for its experimentation–specifically, that I underestimated how much variation there was in result ranking  based on the collection of simultaneous experiments running at any given time.&lt;/i&gt;

Does Jarvis have inside information on this?  How does he know so much about all the experimentation?  Would he care to elaborate, or is all his knowledge behind an NDA firewall?

Because I&#039;m sure that Google does experiment.  Lots.  But the field of information retrieval, experimentation tends to be guided primarily by one&#039;s fitness function, by one&#039;s measure of &quot;goodness&quot;.  So the bigger question to me is, what is Google&#039;s measure of goodness?  

Because it doesn&#039;t matter how many experiments you do, if you are still only trying to optimize a single kind of fitness function.  

By listening to statements from Google&#039;s senior management, I have formed my own picture, my own belief, in what their fitness function is.  And it&#039;s a very limited function.  But my own view is clouded, again, by the black box.  

So Jarvis, or Google, really needs to come out and explain what it is that they&#039;re trying to optimize.  Certainly they can be transparent about that, can&#039;t they?  They can give away the fitness function, without giving away any information about how they&#039;re actually solving/meeting that function, can&#039;t they?

Or if they can&#039;t even discuss what it is they&#039;re trying to optimize, then that&#039;s strike 2 for the &quot;idea of Google&quot;.  Because a transparent company should at least be able to explain what service they&#039;re trying to provide, i.e. what it is that they&#039;re trying to help their customers do better.  Right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>He insisted that I wasn’t giving enough credit to Google for its experimentation–specifically, that I underestimated how much variation there was in result ranking  based on the collection of simultaneous experiments running at any given time.</i></p>
<p>Does Jarvis have inside information on this?  How does he know so much about all the experimentation?  Would he care to elaborate, or is all his knowledge behind an NDA firewall?</p>
<p>Because I&#8217;m sure that Google does experiment.  Lots.  But the field of information retrieval, experimentation tends to be guided primarily by one&#8217;s fitness function, by one&#8217;s measure of &#8220;goodness&#8221;.  So the bigger question to me is, what is Google&#8217;s measure of goodness?  </p>
<p>Because it doesn&#8217;t matter how many experiments you do, if you are still only trying to optimize a single kind of fitness function.  </p>
<p>By listening to statements from Google&#8217;s senior management, I have formed my own picture, my own belief, in what their fitness function is.  And it&#8217;s a very limited function.  But my own view is clouded, again, by the black box.  </p>
<p>So Jarvis, or Google, really needs to come out and explain what it is that they&#8217;re trying to optimize.  Certainly they can be transparent about that, can&#8217;t they?  They can give away the fitness function, without giving away any information about how they&#8217;re actually solving/meeting that function, can&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>Or if they can&#8217;t even discuss what it is they&#8217;re trying to optimize, then that&#8217;s strike 2 for the &#8220;idea of Google&#8221;.  Because a transparent company should at least be able to explain what service they&#8217;re trying to provide, i.e. what it is that they&#8217;re trying to help their customers do better.  Right?</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1802</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1802</guid>
		<description>I also find myself scratching my head about Jarvis&#039; odd distinction between &quot;Google&quot; and &quot;The Idea of Google&quot;.

Unfortunately, I don&#039;t even agree that Google successfully executes on &quot;The Idea of Google&quot;.  I think they&#039;re very good at scratching the surface of &quot;the world&#039;s information&quot;.  But they completely fail to execute on any deeper involvement or exploration or contextualization of information.  As we&#039;ve often discussed.

But to me, the deeper information is what makes &quot;transparent&quot; information ultimately useful and world-changing.  Helping people discover the location of the nearest Starbucks or what time a movie starts, what the URL some someone&#039;s homepage is, or getting a copy of a research paper is nice.  But at the end of the day it doesn&#039;t really change anything.  

What changes things, where transparency really becomes valuable, is when you can find hitherto unseen connections in disparate pieces of information, or when you can find revealing details that no one else in the crowd seems to be aware of.  But this is the very sort of thing that Google *does not* help you with.  Rather, it &quot;pageranks&quot; you into popular, common information and sources.

So even if we look past this disconnect between Google and the idea of Google, I don&#039;t think Google has really made the world all that more transparent.  We can find movie times easier.  But that is not real transparency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also find myself scratching my head about Jarvis&#8217; odd distinction between &#8220;Google&#8221; and &#8220;The Idea of Google&#8221;.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t even agree that Google successfully executes on &#8220;The Idea of Google&#8221;.  I think they&#8217;re very good at scratching the surface of &#8220;the world&#8217;s information&#8221;.  But they completely fail to execute on any deeper involvement or exploration or contextualization of information.  As we&#8217;ve often discussed.</p>
<p>But to me, the deeper information is what makes &#8220;transparent&#8221; information ultimately useful and world-changing.  Helping people discover the location of the nearest Starbucks or what time a movie starts, what the URL some someone&#8217;s homepage is, or getting a copy of a research paper is nice.  But at the end of the day it doesn&#8217;t really change anything.  </p>
<p>What changes things, where transparency really becomes valuable, is when you can find hitherto unseen connections in disparate pieces of information, or when you can find revealing details that no one else in the crowd seems to be aware of.  But this is the very sort of thing that Google *does not* help you with.  Rather, it &#8220;pageranks&#8221; you into popular, common information and sources.</p>
<p>So even if we look past this disconnect between Google and the idea of Google, I don&#8217;t think Google has really made the world all that more transparent.  We can find movie times easier.  But that is not real transparency.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Tunkelang</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1801</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Tunkelang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1801</guid>
		<description>JasonB, I hear you loud and clear. I don&#039;t think Jarvis was shilling Google (do they really need his help?), but I do find his approach problematic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JasonB, I hear you loud and clear. I don&#8217;t think Jarvis was shilling Google (do they really need his help?), but I do find his approach problematic.</p>
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		<title>By: JasonB</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1800</link>
		<dc:creator>JasonB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1800</guid>
		<description>That &quot;idea of Google&quot; supposition is creepy. A brand, among other things, is the interaction of a product with its customers.  Any cognitive dissonance between what the product says and what the customers reflect back creates dissatisfaction with the product. That Jarvis was using that as an argument suggests he&#039;s shilling.  Not good for his &quot;personal brand&quot; either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That &#8220;idea of Google&#8221; supposition is creepy. A brand, among other things, is the interaction of a product with its customers.  Any cognitive dissonance between what the product says and what the customers reflect back creates dissatisfaction with the product. That Jarvis was using that as an argument suggests he&#8217;s shilling.  Not good for his &#8220;personal brand&#8221; either.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Jarvis talks about &#8220;What Would Google Do?&#8221; &#171; NP-Harder</title>
		<link>http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/comment-page-1/#comment-1798</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Jarvis talks about &#8220;What Would Google Do?&#8221; &#171; NP-Harder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thenoisychannel.com/?p=1359#comment-1798</guid>
		<description>[...] Daniel Tunkelang posted another good review of the talk at http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Daniel Tunkelang posted another good review of the talk at <a href="http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/" rel="nofollow">http://thenoisychannel.com/2009/02/05/what-would-google-do-what-does-google-do/</a> [...]</p>
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